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November 26, 2006

The Open Invitation

As I mentioned when I first addressed the topic of the minimum wage last week, there was a particular turn of phrase in the post which I wanted to address in more detail. As part of her closing arguments after spooling off an impressive assortment of unhappy anecdotes, hilzoy commented "these stories should not exist in one of the wealthiest countries in the world".

That's a great argument, isn't it? I say that because it is wholly unbounded; it's a license to do anything you want without the slightest constraint, and it encapsulates what scares me about modern liberalism. I suspect that, if asked, hilzoy would concede that even if her desire for a minimum wage increase indexed to inflation was passed into law, such stories would still occur. In a country of 300 million people, such stories are guaranteed to occur, in fact. Some people are just going to be unlucky and others are going to make bad choices that put them in such situations. Which is what makes the argument so brilliant: if we accept that premise, it's a license for ever-increasing government interference.

Of course, it's fair to argue that we're already at that point, at a time when one dollar in three in this country is spent on some kind of government program. But there's plenty of room for government expansion as far as our two major political parties are concerned. This argument is just one of many deployed to justify such expansions. (I should note that, for the most part, I don't think either party is necessarily interested in government expansion for the sake of expansion; they just have myriad issues they think government should address, and massive expansion of government is just a side-effect of their quest for social justice or whatever they'd like to call it.)

There are a lot of unfortunate things that occur in this country. Every day, people are murdered, robbed, raped, they go hungry, children go without the kind of schooling that might give them some hope of rising above the circumstances of their birth...the list goes on and on and it's a horrible one. I can certainly empathize with those who want to see those things stopped. But arguing that such things shouldn't happen in America is an invalid argument, and one I'll fight at every opportunity. A valid argument would have to offer some hope that adopting the proponent's views would solve the problem raised in their argument, and that isn't the case here. We've had government trying to solve the problem of crime since the inception of government, and even in countries with markedly fewer civil rights and much harsher methods of punishment, crime still exists. So it will be with poverty. Government isn't going to solve the problem, unless it is by making everyone equally impoverished, and I'm pretty sure that isn't the goal of more than a vanishing fraction of the modern left.

It's lovely to believe that, because the United States does possess great wealth in the aggregate, sad stories about poverty never should become reality. But they do, and they will continue to do so as long as we live. That is how the world works: most things will end up scattered along a bell-shaped curve, and that means that some people are going to end up on the left of that curve. Complaints that such things shouldn't happen in America are akin to laments that the laws of physics ought to be repealed, and should be treated similarly.

Posted at November 26, 2006 08:01 AM

Andrew Olmsted

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Comments

"A valid argument would have to offer some hope that adopting the proponent's views would solve the problem raised in their argument, and that isn't the case here. We've had government trying to solve the problem of crime since the inception of government, and even in countries with markedly fewer civil rights and much harsher methods of punishment, crime still exists. So it will be with poverty. Government isn't going to solve the problem, unless it is by making everyone equally impoverished, and I'm pretty sure that isn't the goal of more than a vanishing fraction of the modern left."

There's a vast and gaping excluded middle here, and that is whether a problem can be sufficiently ameliorated by certain government steps against it as to make that result a sufficient justification for the attempt.

Reducing it to all or nothing makes no sense. You make an analogy between the impossibility of preventing all crime and the impossibility of preventing all poverty, and conclude that therefore governmental action to fight poverty is unjustifiable, without seeming to notice that you're not making the logically mandatory claim (as called for by your own analogy) that since we can't wipe out crime, we shouldn't have governmental efforts to fight crime.

The better argument would seem to be "is this law/regulation cost-effective at achieving the desirec goal?," not "does this completely solve the problem?, and if the answer is 'no,' obviously that means we shouldn't do anything."

I'd say that regards anti-poverty programs and anti-crime programs, I'd want to measure whether the cost of the program was worth it or not; but the idea that if the given program/law doesn't meet with 100% success, it's therefore obviously a bad program/law, makes no sense to me.

Whether the appropirate measure is 50% success, or 75%, or 95%, or whatever specific number, is something reasonable people can argue about, on the other hand.

I'm genuinely unclear whether or which parts of what I say here you might agree or disagree with, although I'm guessing you don't believe that since we can't wipe out murder, we shouldn't have any governmental programs to fight it/prevent it/punish it. What the inherent difference in this context is between murder and poverty, for you, I'm not clear, although there does seem to be one (part of it is, of course, your false belief that government can't successfully fight poverty significantly; were that actually true, it would certainly be reasonable to note that making a pointless effort is pointless; this is actually a point of facts and statistics, though, and thus should be fairly easily settleable; if it's just a matter of agreeing precisely what results are and aren't worth what effort is another matter, of course, and more troublesome, though I'm not particularly dogmatic about insisting on specifics in the middle, myself).

Posted by: Gary Farber [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 3, 2006 06:43 PM

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